Kick-off post
Janne over at this blogpost on the upcoming contest for Frankfurter Buchmesse brought up the issue (read comments here) http://www.jovoto.com/blog/2010/08/frankfurter-buchmesse-contest-wh....
- Are people who are less fit at visualizing their ideas at a disadvantage?
- does that mean we don't want conceptual tasks? (Careful: rethorical question! Of course we want to allow also conceptual tasks!!! ;-))
- How can we get better at recognizing good conceptual work?
- How can we get better at presenting conceptual work?
discuss!
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2 Posted by Janne on 13 Aug, 2010 07:25 AM
Great, you offer this subject for discussion. After reading (nearly) all concepts of the betacup-contest, I was astonished to see how many really good concepts there had been, that didn´t get the attention they deserved, simply because the authors didn´t have the knowledge or means to visualize their ideas attractively. I came to the conculusion, that it would have been easier for some of them, if there had been a phase of introducing one´s idea in short and looking for potential collaborators. After that there could have been a second phase working out ideas together.
As for me - I am a graphic designer. I was a bit overstreched with considering every angle of the whole coffee consuming thing. Others there had more thourough thoughts but lacked illustration skills. It would have been great to combine those two groups.
So to return to your questions: yes, I think creative people without ability to visualize their idea are at a disadvantage on jovoto. The only solution I see, is promoting collaboration. How this could function in practice, I don´t know - but I bet, you have some creative thinkers in your team who will... ;o)
Looking forward to see where this will lead us,
Janne
3 Posted by Frieda on 13 Aug, 2010 09:43 AM
Hi Janne,
thanks for your input! The Betacup was very intense for everybody and I actually still think that you are probably the person who had the best overview on all concepts ;-)
Developing collaboration tools is a prime concern we're dealing with at the moment and there are a lot of different things to keep in mind:
- how can we make it easier for members to pair with each other, or rather how do the best fitting collaboratees find each other? - should collaboratees have the chance to work on an idea "in the hidden" (like in a work room) before submitting it? - how is the potential prize money being divided? - and many more
Also, the question of how to well arrange a big (conceptual) contest in a way that makes it manageable for everybody to deal with the sheer number of concepts is one we have to tackle.
These challenges are especially important since we do not want to limit jovoto on design tasks! I know there are a lot of designers on the platform, but after all jovoto is about ideas and we will definitely try to host more conceptual contests and contests that deal with other topics, for example architecture or literature or fine arts or innovation or games. This will open up new opportunities for everybody, designer or not. To be ready we have to further develop the platform to provide the necessary tools. Your input and inspiration is highly welcome since we want you to feel good when working on jovoto.
In this sense, let's dicuss!
4 Posted by Janne on 13 Aug, 2010 10:15 AM
Hi Frieda,
this hidden workroom idea sounds very good. I could imagine a seperate "room" where collaborators of one idea can load up their drafts and discuss them with each other, without anyone from "outside" watching. When they have decided which way to go, they upload their idea visible to all,
Perhaps it would be advisable, if one member of the jovoto team had access to those secret workrooms to be asked for advice and to make sure the team is getting along well.
The only thing that I find difficult to decide, is how collaborators might know beforehand whether the other member is just the person they are looking for. In those cases, where a member is long known to the community, this might be quite simple as you already know whose style you like and who you liked as a discussion partner. The though thing is for new members, as neither they will know who might fit nor the community knows anything about him/her.
But there surely is a solution and I am really eager to know how you wil tackle this. ;o)
Janne
5 Posted by Maximilian Kraemer on 16 Aug, 2010 02:40 PM
I think it is very important for the growth of jovoto to offer some kind of a privat workroom. People with good ideas but less graphical talent are in disadvantage. People will try and try and will never get respect and win any price money.Those people will leave the plattform in the end. It´s important to give positive incitation.
For them it would be cool to hire some people with graphic power.. Like this. click on an extra button " Colabo" besides the follow and write a message button on the profile picture. You can ask for Colabortion. If this person likes your idea maybe he says ok lets do it together your concept is great.
In this workroom it could be chaotic but it has to be intuitiv.... i dont know how to releaze that ... i think it is very tough.
What you guys think?
6 Posted by Frieda on 16 Aug, 2010 02:49 PM
@Janne: I share your thoughts on the idea of a "hidden workroom". But wouldn't it be unfair if people working there would be guided by a jovoto team member? That's something that a creative working on an idea alone does not enjoy (well, enjoy, you know what I mean ;-)
@ Maximilian: thanks a lot for your input! I like the idea of a "Colabo"button a lot! One could also show one's general willingness for collabo and then appear in some kind of list (a sorting in the community page).
What do you guys think, if you had some kind of tags with which you could indicate what kind of expertise you offer, like graphic design, illsutration, text, film etc, would, that help? Or would that only make things totally complicated and hard to oversee?
7 Posted by dieSeinerin on 16 Aug, 2010 03:50 PM
Hi everybody,
I am quite new at Jovoto. What I really like is, that others can give me critics for what I do and sometimes there is really good imput for developing a better version. That is already somehow a "collaborating thing".
For some contests I already had the problem that I couldn't visualize my idea. For example in a little movie. I cannot do movies. Same with 3D-modelling. I am really bad in stuff like this. So I can imagine a lot of people out there having the same handicap.
That's why I think it might be a great idea to make a button for collaboration. I just think it might be difficult to really do so.
The first problem is: how to find somebody that brings my idea into a good looking movie? In a way that fits to my imagination? Than quickly we have a contest in a contest.
Second I see a problem when the hidden workroom is too hidden. Similar ideas could be easily devoloped while the same time without knowing from each other.
The biggest problem I see is the payment. Who is getting payed in the end? Everyone who gave a little advice? Which one was the strongest hint? And so on...
Maybe it is possible to do a little contest in a contest. Somehow like Tchibo ideas... But herefor it is the need for more money. For example there is a contest with a briefing. People will put their ideas together. There is a step where the company (that has given the briefing) decides which ideas get into the next round. Even if an idea is not visual shown, more written as a concept. (for that part the company should bring some imagination for development).
Maybe there is an idea picked up that is just a concept, but the company really really likes. Than they could pay an amount for the one that had the idea and give another amount for the best solution. Somehow like it works with Tchibo ideas.
But in the end I still can't imagine how that can really work.
To be honest: I wouldn't go on with my ideas at jovoto when there is never a chance to win. At the moment I got a little time to try out. Also to test how Jovoto works. The payment is not really high. Not what I am used to. But anyway I love the working here because I've got the feeling not to be alone in my office. But when it doesn't come out anything in the end (that means, working for several months and never earn some money with it), than it is not very effectful for me and I would need to skip it. :-(
That's why I see the collaborating idea with some scepsis even when it might be a great thought. People might invest even more time, having the same bad chance to win and when they win, they even have to divide their winning money.
Probably the voting system should be more improved for more fairness and has more priority at the moment... (?)
I am not sure if I could help. That is just what I think at the moment. Maybe in some months I think different about it. But for now that's it. And it's honest.
All the best and until soon,
Andrea
8 Posted by dieSeinerin on 16 Aug, 2010 04:08 PM
I just had another thought that could work more easily.
Just imagine:
A concept is uploaded as usual. People can do comments but the Designer cannot really do it better. Than others can just pick up the idea of the concept, do it better and upload it in the same open project. So there is shown the concept of the one that cannot visualize its idea and the visualizations of others with their particular names. All in one page. Each person could get a new row under the first idea.
So actually this one is as well a contest in a contest (same as the idea in my other comment) but probably with more fairness. If one visualization of that concept is picked up by the jury in the end, than the one who gave the concept as well like the one who did the picked visualization should get the money.
That is something I already thought by watching some ideas. I should be able to show the designer what I mean to make it better. With that concept a better collaboration would be awoked because you will not only give some nice advices that will just help the others but also yourself. Because you could help the idea to get a winning one and therefor you could be payed as well..
What do you think about that???
Best,
Andrea
9 Posted by Maximilian Kraemer on 16 Aug, 2010 10:02 PM
@ Frieda a list for general willingness for a collabo ...is a very smart idea ! but people have to quickly. There must be a time limit ....so ideas will not be wastet.
10 Posted by Frieda on 17 Aug, 2010 01:47 PM
oh this is great, really cool to get so much input and different ideas and discuss it!
@dieSeinerin: very good point with the danger of a similar idea being developed in different "workrooms", have to consider that!
about the problem of finding the right person and deciding on a workflow and style: at the moment I kind of imagine a tag for ideas that are open for collab. If someone uploads a concept and needs visualisation, he/she marks his idea. then people can "apply" for participating in the collab - the creative with the concept allows people into the workroom where then the idea is developed. the workroom could look a little bit like the idea upload now, only with the comment thread undernetah for communication. and of course collaboratees would have to be granted access.
the prize money (if) is divided equally between all collaboratees.
maybe we need to set a max number of collaboratees? maybe the creative who opened the idea to collab sets a max number at the beginning?
also timelines are an important issue. as @maximilian pointed out rightly, we might need time frames for eg "collab call" and "collab creation time"?
I think we need to keep it as simple as possible at the beginning. After having some experience we can still refine the concept and add more and more details.
I like the idea of @dieSeinerin of totally open ideas where other creatives just can post their version/development of beneath, but I think that's sth for a next step. Right?
11 Posted by dieSeinerin on 17 Aug, 2010 02:06 PM
@ Frieda I don't really see the idea of totally open ideas as a next step. More as a solution for the discussed collab. Here everything would be open for everyone and double ideas can be prevent. The price money could be divided just for two persons - totally equal how many people uploaded their visual ideas for the concept. The jury chooses in the end a visualisation that fits best and the winner should share its money with the one who gave the concept. Because without him he wouldn't have had a chance to win, same for the concept maker.
All the others that had upload a version of the concept will earn nothing. Same like it is at the moment. Designs that are not picked up, don't get anything.
All that could look the way it is by now, but just with a new opened row underneath the owners row (once a new version of another owner is uploaded). When you click on a design preview it opens at the same place as it is by now...
12 Posted by dieSeinerin on 17 Aug, 2010 02:18 PM
just an example:
I made a rough first concept at the Triumph contest. I know the potential in that idea and I could make many visualisations for it.
But... at the moment I don't have the time and in 3 days I am going for 3 weeks for holiday. By than the contest will be over. What a pitty...
It would be great if now people see the same potential in my idea and can upload their visualizations and ideas with the paper doll-concept inside. That could be movies, interactive stuff, games...
I would like if others go on with thinking while I can't. So the idea still has a chance to win. Therefor I would love to divide the money into two...
Frieda closed this discussion on 26 Jan, 2011 11:42 AM.